Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Archaludon is now banned]

>just a gooyle forms away
Ohohoho someone hasnt done the last two surveys. We've moved on to forum-based surveys. Unsure if guests can vote, but probably not.
Yeah I have taken both of the last surveys, I meant it more as a way of saying, sorry for the confusion, but point still stands, I doubt the forum surveys are too hard to set up
 
But people leaving because controversial decisions always happen. If Tera had been banned or if sleep clause had been maintained the same number of people would have left just for different reasons. I think we should listen to people who keep playing instead of people who can leave if something they don't approve happen because they can leave again.

If someone only played the tier until the Tera decision there is no guarantee they will enjoy and continue to play OU even if it's banned.
yes, but i've never seen one go out of their way to do it at the expense of the people who do live in the country. that's what people are proposing here—that the council go out of its way to make a separate survey for people who don't play the tier to try and win them back by overturning the playerbase's decisions
Sorry, i can't get behind the idea that if players dislike how the meta has developed enough to lose interest in playing it, they deserve no voice in improving it. If it were a meme tier like RU or Gen 6 UUbersBL or Natdex Gen 8 Monotype UU or whatever that's one thing, not a big deal if active players lose interest, but Current Gen OU is Smogon's flagship tier. It should be as good as possible & alienating longtime players that have historically been invested isn't a "well too bad" scenario in my view. If we are to take this view, then there's no such thing as a "bad tiering decision," it would apparently be the players' fault for disliking the meta if it gets worse and nothing should be done?
 
Sorry, i can't get behind the idea that if players dislike how the meta has developed enough to lose interest in playing it, they deserve no voice in improving it. If it were a meme tier like RU or Gen 6 UUbersBL or Natdex Gen 8 Monotype UU or whatever that's one thing, not a big deal if active players lose interest, but Current Gen OU is Smogon's flagship tier. It should be as good as possible & alienating longtime players that have historically been invested isn't a "well too bad" scenario in my view. If we are to take this view, then there's no such thing as a "bad tiering decision," it would apparently be the players' fault for disliking the meta if it gets worse and nothing should be done?
Exactly, it's fine if you lose interest and decide to not participate in it, but you shouldn't participate in the tiering decisions since you do not know enough about the current metagame to make an informed decision. Even more so if you decide that you hate the meta and quit pokemon for good over a decision, in that case I don't think they deserved to participate at all. It's including people who could have a negative influence on results, and if you want to make a second survey for them then that seems like too much effort for so little reward, if they left this meta, then they most likely will not participate in the survey. It seems like we are trying to cater for someone who will still spit in our faces anyways, not that all people who are no longer interested in Gen 9 are like that, but a few people will be.
It's like if previous council members still got a vote in tiering decisions, their time is up, they have left the council. They can say their opinions, but that shouldn't influence the results.
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
I support a complete reset of OU and banning things per month or 20 days.
Imma be real with you, freedom cup did that but cringe because it added in things that were rightfully yeeted like evasion and OHKO moves. But I get your vision, and honestly, I could see it being weirdly balanced if we just clean slated the banlist and tried anew, no QB since that would just be returning to what was before.
 
I mean, even you can do something similar:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal in Sun: 351-414 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow in Sun: 4400-5184 (1212.1 - 1428%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal in Sun: 642-756 (187.1 - 220.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
I mean, even you can do something similar:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal in Sun: 351-414 (102.3 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal in Sun: 481-567 (140.2 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
chi yu is getting too powerful and carkol must adapt to continue countering it

IMG_2637.jpeg

Carkol @ Eviolite
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Fire Spin/ Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
sun and u turn spam teams have also been acting inappropriately, meaning the king of competitive must rise from the fallen ashes of ZU and

FIGHT

back against match up reliant teams, carkol is our metagames saviour, being able to spike, spread skillful burns and maybe check choice locked kyurem, raging bolt, rillaboom, volcarona and even cobalion, not because its highly flawed, but because it glitches the game with its brokenness
 
But people leaving because controversial decisions always happen. If Tera had been banned or if sleep clause had been maintained the same number of people would have left just for different reasons. I think we should listen to people who keep playing instead of people who can leave if something they don't approve happen because they can leave again.

If someone only played the tier until the Tera decision there is no guarantee they will enjoy and continue to play OU even if it's banned.
Well, this could be a self fulfilling prophecy by the same logic. If we banned Tera and the same number of folks left for that, then the people left behind could be more anti-Tera crowd and so on. And so the point that not banning Tera left more pro-Tera people behind and generated a cycle of increasing pro-Tera majority would likely be getting at that. You stayed. You claim you are more invested/more informed. Just maybe other folks would have stayed and claimed to be more invested/informed with different decisions. Does that make them worse? Not necesarrily.

Personally, I don't believe in this because Tera is just a more popular mechanic. So I believe more people support Tera in general, and in some cases, regardless of how healthy it is for the tier. But in other cases, I'm sure there are plenty of folks who genuinely believe it isn't so bad. As an anti-Tera person myself, by technicality, I don't like that term because I don't hate Tera. I think it's a fun mechanic. Just poorly balanced and not good for the game.

I will say that I have been in and out of the tier myself because gen 9 power creep with Tera is just frustrating sometimes. I did miss the last survey where Tera was on it. So I don't know how many other people there are like me. But it's not necesarrily an invalid point to say that folks may be less engaged because of the direction of the tier. It's also too black and white to say folks left when some have probably been in and out or what have you. Sometimes, there are those in the Smogon community who tend to too easily dismiss the opinion of others because of arbitrary reasons.

However, I will reiterate that I do get the sense Tera is generally more popular. So in this case, I tend to doubt there would be enough folks who have been semi-invested or irregularly invested to make a difference. I guess it also depends on how close the votes are, but I'm guessing probably not.
 
You mean like whenever we suspect Kyurem we ban Kyurem on ladder to see if we like the meta without Kyurem? Oh wait, we never did that, we run Kyurem in the ladder while the suspect is going on because the tiering philosophy says that we tier based on the current state of the meta. If you want to get a flavour of a teraless OU you can participate in the OU room tours on Showdown, which a lot of times are teraless. But pre-banning something before the actual ban vote would be setting a very negative precedent, in that the people who want something banned would get it before the fact, and if the vote doesn't go through there'd be clamoring of "hey let's go back to that ladder, i preferred it that way". Things are done a certain way and I'm certain others can give more solid, more convincing and better written arguments on why this is the case, and if you don't agree then go on the policy review thread and explain why you feel like suspects should now be run a different way. My point is that it is disingenuous to act any different in regards to tera and that pre-banning it before the suspect or creating a different ladder is barely gonna sway anyone's opinion.
What I meant was that we suspect test tera first, and if the suspect test says that it is going to be banned then we ban it. I was just saying that it was a possible idea that we could also make an alternate format where tera is banned on a different server for a little bit if we wouldn't want to suspect tera for some reason. It was just an idea, wasn't saying it should happen. I personally think we should just suspect tera if enough people say we should.
 
252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Venusaur Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 160-190 (63.7 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What do we think?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -6 Lvl 1 0 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras in Sun: 0-58680 (0 - 533454.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
I have outdone all of you.
 
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. -6 Lvl 1 0 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras in Sun: 0-58680 (0 - 533454.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
I have outdone all of you.
"Paras had a small niche in its debut generation SV Ubers for its ability to, 6.2% of the time, stand up to the mighty Chi-Yu's sun-boosted fire blasts to land a spore, crippling the monster, something few other pokemon could claim"
 
Wait….. how does this even work?
Damage overflow
Level 1 Dry Skin Paras with 0 HP or Special Defense EVs, a Special Defense lowering nature, -6 Special Defense, against a level 100 tera fire choice specs beads of ruin 252+ SpA Chi Yu in sun
I guess that Fire Blast's 110 BP is in a range that's specific enough to not include Flamethrower or Overheat that hits 0 in the damage overflow
 
If we include all the people who left because of our decision to not ban tera, plus people whose opinions have shifted, we might have an anti-tera majority playerbase this time.
then they shouldn't have left, should they? it's not our fault they were too weak to suck it up and play the game until the next opportunity for action. you don't see me taking my ball and going home because i don't like how the gambit suspect turned out or because the community has consistently failed to act on ghold
 
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